38 Comments

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  Comment by Steve Martin — May 31, 2011 @ 11:16 am

  Our Deacon Gene carries his photos on his laptop.

  And he wears a bullet proof vest.

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  Comment by Candra — May 31, 2011 @ 12:50 pm

  @Steve Martin- Now that is rough.

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  Comment by Tater2000 — May 31, 2011 @ 12:53 pm

  Woa… This ain’t funny. I really had this happen only it wasn’t a photo album it was… An old, round, carousel of 35mm slides. *choke*
  It was brutal. The man had no pity. No mercy. No empathy. A text book sociopath.
  We sat in a living room getting steadily more and more uncomfortable sitting on the floor and the counter stools or wedged between two heavy set church members.
  He… *lower lip quiver*… Narrated each and every slide, clicking to the next one with a sadistic monotone and lack of remorse that bordered on the psychotic.
  He would lose his place. He would forget where this slide was taken. He would turn to his wife. She would answer. He would disagree. My legs were falling asleep. The next slide would be him in a hat “worn by the local natives.” I would’ve told him anything. The launch codes. The vulnerable spots on the Death Star. The secret recipe of my Dad’s barbeque sauce. Where I REALLY got my wife’s wedding ring.
  I pulled the eject cord… “Oh… My appendix! It has ruptured. Oh, no. I must leave the room to go see a doctor who is listed as accepting my insurance.”
  And that’s how I escaped.
  Years later I was unable to use the technique again when I got stuck in an adult Bible study with a guy who had 500+ pages of notes that he kept dropping and leafing through and stopping to read to himself and losing his place… All for a forty minute lesson from Ephesians 1:4-5.
  How did I escape?
  *grin*
  That’s another story…

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  Comment by Carol — May 31, 2011 @ 1:01 pm

  I don’t recall it being a deacon, but rather a visiting missionary during Missions Week….and the thing that was disturbing for me was the attention drawn to himself and what he or his family were “doing” rather than glorifying God and the work HE was doing. It was like a glorified version of the boring old uncle who brought his slides and gave a 20 minute explanation of each picture re-living the experience with us as though we are enthralled with every detail as he was to tell it…

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  Comment by Helen — May 31, 2011 @ 2:39 pm

  Not sure I see the attraction about going to the “Holy Land”… I’d be scared of running into Rory and Wendy Alec, or the TBN crew, or busloads of Dispensationalists (sorry if that offends anyone!)

  - Besides, “He is not here; he has risen!” ascended, and is seated at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. And, are we not, like the Heroes of Faith, “longing for a better country – a heavenly one”?!

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  Comment by Helen — May 31, 2011 @ 2:51 pm

  P.S. Sola Scriptura!!!

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  Comment by Dave — June 1, 2011 @ 6:26 am

  the endless slide show when everything else fails bring out the slides, I am so glad those days are gone. Now its video with sound and more life but oh we can still be bored to tears.

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  Comment by gumbymonster — June 1, 2011 @ 6:27 am

  Is there a Holy “land” much less Holy “lands” today? In the new covenant God dwells in His elect whereby making them holy by them being in Christ. No mention in the Bible of God making any lands holy in the new testament, is there?

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  Comment by Stephen Cracknell — June 1, 2011 @ 7:09 am

  Actually Gumby there is … Australia is the new holy land and I can prove it. We have a guy over here (AJ Miller), who recently made prime time current affairs news on a major network. He claims to be Jesus. “So what!” I hear you say – “we have plenty of these guys in the good old USA who claim to be Jesus!”. Ah-ah! Our “Jesus” has set up a property in Queensland (nothern part of Oz) with … wait for it … Mary Magdalene! They are serious! So, send over old Deacon Blues with his slide show and I’ll direct him up north to the happy couple!That should keep them out of action for a month or two.(See: http://www.christianfaith.com.au/resources/aca-exposes-aj-miller-christian-faith-interviewed)

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  Comment by Alan — June 1, 2011 @ 7:38 am

  Um, whoever comes up with whatever ridiculous nonsense, Israel & Jerusalem are still important to God and therefore to us (I’d posts some scriptures here, but Gensis to Revelation pretty much covers it).
  Not that Israel should be visited as part of some religious pilgrimage, but regarded, in a sense, in the same way as the bread & wine in comminion; as a remembrance; of the fact that it was the Promised Land, the place Jesus walked, died & rose again, & the place He will return to, to rule from for 1,000 yrs. I’d go tomorrow. I just wouldn’t allow it to make me big-headed, or think myself more ‘anointed’.
  In the same way that the bread & wine are ’sacred’, (but not Holy as in transubstantiation), I believe Israel & Jerusalem are very important to the Lord (&
  therefore to me). The physical rule of Jesus from Jerusalem is quite clearly spoken of in the Bible, but isn’t very popular these days. Many today tend to spiritualize this (eg: Word of Faith & Emargent), and they make the second coming into a spiritual awakening in the hearts of believers. This is exactly the same as New Age teaching, of the ‘christ conciousness’ manifesting in the hearts of men. I believe the downgrading,
  (or superspiritual, hyper-pentecostal over-emphasizing) of the importance of Israel is a key factor leading to such deception.

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  Comment by Harry — June 1, 2011 @ 7:59 am

  Yeah, right, a deacon with a smile. C’mon!!

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  Comment by gumbymonster — June 1, 2011 @ 8:21 am

  @Stephen … I stand corrected, my bad.
  @Allen … Aren’t the regenerated gentiles grafted into the tree of Israel with Christ being the root. Israel under the new covenant is the invisible church of Christ, not a specific physical piece of real estate.

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  Comment by gumbymonster — June 1, 2011 @ 8:24 am

  I’m sorry I spelled your name wrong, I meant Alan.

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  Comment by Helen — June 1, 2011 @ 8:59 am

  @Gumbymonster, you think like I do!

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  Comment by Tater2000 — June 1, 2011 @ 9:26 am

  To Helen and gumby:
  Some questions…
  What does Romans 11:1 mean?
  What does Romans 11:11-36 mean?
  What does, “…blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25) mean?
  What happens AFTER “…the fullness of the Gentiles has come in”?
  What does the word “irrevocable” mean to you? (Romans 11:29)
  What does the word “forever” mean? (Genesis 13:14-15)
  When did the Church ever get any literal, physical, land on the east side of the Mediterranean?
  Where in the New Testament is the Church ever called “Israel”? (Not “nation”. “Israel”.)

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  Comment by gumbymonster — June 1, 2011 @ 12:00 pm

  @Tater … I don’t want to take up too much space here so I’ll be short.
  The purpose of chapter 11 is to show that only truly regenerated believers have a part in Christ. Either Jews/Israelites that do not repent and trust in the Savior/Jesus will be cut off from the tree or if they do they will be grafted in. And gentiles who do repent and trust Jesus will be grafted in. So all those who are in Christ will be saved. Thus they are the church of God, His bride.
  As far as Gen. 13… the land promised is the whole earth, the new earth, thus the forever language. The land promised to his seed would be to all who are saved. God told Abraham to look in every direction, so literally it would be approximately 10 x 10 mile area of land or taken in context it would be all the earth.
  All this is pointing to Christ and the cumulation of God’s eternal purpose of salvation and redemption.
  If you want to converse more, I’ll give you my email.

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  Comment by Tater2000 — June 1, 2011 @ 12:29 pm

  Gumby;
  You’re out of context. True, those saved are those who come by way of the cross. No argument.
  But Romans 11 is Paul talking about his literal bloodline and so he is talking about a literal “Israel”. He is answering the question, “What is to become of literal Israel? Is God through with them forever?” No. (Romans 11:29)

  Gen 13:14-15
  14 And the LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are–northward, southward, eastward, and westward;
  15 “for all the land WHICH YOU SEE I give to you and your descendants FOREVER.
  Did Abram see “the whole earth”?
  What does Romans 11:1 mean?
  What does Romans 11:11-36 mean?
  What does, “…blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25) mean?
  What happens AFTER “…the fullness of the Gentiles has come in”?
  What does the word “irrevocable” mean to you? (Romans 11:29)
  What does the word “forever” mean? (Genesis 13:14-15)

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  Comment by Jim Pemberton — June 1, 2011 @ 1:13 pm

  This is why I’ve learned to make short (only a few minutes long), informative videos that focus on the work God is doing and convey a vision for continued efforts.

  On the other hand, for a youth sleep-in when it’s time to hit the hay, a long slideshow filled with group photos of people that no one knows and countless dirty faces of poor, indigenous, third-world children could be just the thing to get the lights out in short order.

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  Comment by gumbymonster — June 1, 2011 @ 1:13 pm

  Tater, I agree with you, not all Israel will be cut off. Paul boasts in Christ not his ancestral line. In fact he counted it as rubbish compared to knowing the glorious riches of Christ. He was telling the gentiles, those that God chose, not to think that all Jews were cut off from the gospel, using himself as an example.

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  Comment by Tater2000 — June 1, 2011 @ 1:20 pm

  I don’t want to get tied to a vocabulary that pegs be as a “dispensationalist”. I’m a “Christian”.
  Seven, eight dispensations, blah, blah, blah… I don’t stress about it.
  I’ll just say this. Israel is not the Church and the Church is not Israel. The two remain exclusive branches to the tree. One or the other.
  a. Israel. – Jews saved by grace alone, through faith alone in the blood of the lamb alone. No Jew was ever saved by obeying the Law, (Hebrews 7:19; 10:4). They were saved by seeing their failure in obeying the Law and having faith in the atonement that the sacrificial lamb provided. Looking forward as a type of the “Lamb Of God”, (John 1:29 ), who would one day come as the Messiah, (Isa 53).
  b. The Church. – Those saved by grace alone, through faith alone in the blood of the Lamb alone, (Eph 2:8-9). The Church looks back in time to the sacrifice of Jesus.
  These two groups are not entirely two different nations or types of the Kingdom of God. It might be explained as what political party is running the country for a set time.
  The country has not been “replaced”. Just the government.
  Which is God using to work His redemptive plan at the moment? The Church.
  (There are NOT two covenants. John Hagge is dead wrong.)
  But to say one “replaced” the other is misleading people. God has a people, (1 Peter 2:9-10). He got those people through Israel and then through the Church. Did the Church “replace” Israel?
  Yes, BUT… The Church replaced Israel but only for a temporary time. “…until the fullness of the gentiles has come in…”
  There it is. The “replacement” is not permanent.
  What other interpretation can you have?
  We should maintain the vocabulary the Bible uses. Branches, broken, grafted, grafted again.
  God is not through with the Jew. He will keep His promises to ethnic Abraham and his descendants, (Genesis 12:7; 13:14-17). This requires a body of ethic descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Land.

  No, I’m not arminian.
  No, I’m not duel covenant.
  No, I’m not with Family Radio.

  And don’t get me wrong. The “State Of Israel” that is over there in the land right now is FAR from “Holy”. I know that. It is secular and socialist.
  My belief is not that it’s holy NOW. But that it will be soon. (Zech 13:9)
  Rom 11:26 “And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;”

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  Comment by Alan — June 1, 2011 @ 3:33 pm

  Thanks Tater, I couldn’t have put it better myself. Like I tried to say, let’s keep it a biblically balanced view, neither under, nor over-emphasizing the importance. Israel is a secular nation at best, no question. However, so are all the other nations of the world; so what? The fact remains that it is to Israel that Jesus will return and from Jerusalem He will rule the nations, before the establishment of the new heavens and new earth, which come after that. This is the reason the Jewish people are so hated by others, and the land is so desired by Islamists. in-spite of the fact that it’s not mentioned in the Koran in terms anything like those in the scriptures. Sorry to stir it up, but we must be faithful to the Word of God, not the traditions of men.
  Blessings,
  Alan.

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  Comment by Stephen Cracknell — June 1, 2011 @ 4:04 pm

  Oh dear? have you guys really thought this through? Check out Kim Riddlebarger on eschatology; one helpful dude! Google: Riddleblog

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  Comment by gumbymonster — June 1, 2011 @ 4:09 pm

  An excellent suggestion, Stephen.

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  Comment by Helen — June 1, 2011 @ 7:20 pm

  An excellent suggestion, Stephen!

  PS: I really enjoy living in the Millennium! (Oh no, woman, don’t start!)

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  Comment by tater2000 — June 1, 2011 @ 9:45 pm

  Thanks Alan.
  I’ve read the Kim Riddlebarger blog. I’ve seen all that before.
  The Preterist Archive is another.
  I’ve read Gary DeMar and Hank Hanegraaff and I don’t find them very useful in the area of eschatology.
  Because they take assumptions that have to be proven first before the rest of what they say can fit.
  Things like the Church replacing Israel as Israel. The Church is not Israel the Church is the Church.
  Since I take THAT from Romans 11 and Galatians 3:27-28 I do not see signs of covenants transferring over to the Church.
  The Church gets no literal land. All the land that Abram could literally “SEE”. (Gen 13:14-15)
  I see no Biblically backed reason to accept infant baptism as a “sign” of the covenant like circumcision was.
  No infant is baptized in all the New Testament. Everyone baptized is a believing adult.
  And so, since I do not see these as biblically backed doctrines I see no reason to see their eschatology as valid.
  In areas of sola scriptura, the doctrines of election and the sovereignty of God… I’m with them. Amen.
  They are dead on right.
  But they have Covenant Theology wrong. That makes them have to spiritualize too much of what should be taken literally. And that includes a large percentage of passages dealing with Christ’s return. The Covenant between the Godhead is right. I got no problem there.
  But God does not end covenants with one people, Israel. And then transfer the signs over to the next, the Church.
  We, the Church, have our own signs. The Lords Table. Baptism by immersion to replicate the Lord burial and resurrection (Romans 6:4). I’m opening another can of worms there…
  Israel is Israel. The Church is the Church. i.e. The Church did not replace Israel AS Israel.
  And “Israel” though it is “blind” for now will be back! (Romans 11:25)

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  Comment by Alan — June 2, 2011 @ 2:39 am

  Didn’t know what Tater was referring to with the ‘Riddlebarger’ bit, but having looked at the post that mentioned it, all is clear.
  Let me state once and for all; I don’t care if an angel from heaven (let alone some blogger) says that God is finished with Israel (see Gal. 1:8), the clear word of Prophecy says otherwise (Jer.31:35-37. Plus innumerable others).
  Unless you want to go spiritualizing all over the place, which as I pointed out before, WILL lead you into Emergent/Word of Faith lunacy eventually.
  You cannot take all the blessings of the prophecies to Israel and give them to the church, unless you are also going to take all of the curses as well.
  Any takers? Didn’t think so!
  Preterism holds that the events of Revelation, Matthew 24+25, et al, happened circa 70AD. Funny, but I’m sure Jesus didn’t come back at that time and we’re all still here, yet in the Olivet discourse, He distinctly tells us that if He doesn’t show up pretty smartly when these events transpire, there’ll be no-one left (Matt. 24:22), so those events cannot possibly have happened already.
  There are other things, like all kinds of signs in the heavens, etc, but then we’re back to people spiritualizing stuff away again, so I won’t bother.
  Search the SCRIPTURES (not commentaries, lexicons, blogs, or best-sellers) to see if these things be so, as per the Bereans. (Acts 17:10-11)
  God Bless,
  Alan.

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  Comment by gumbymonster — June 2, 2011 @ 3:03 pm

  Please read 1 Peter 2:4-11 and Eph. 2:11-22. It clearly states the wall of separation has been brought down, making those who believe a holy nation, being built on the chief cornerstone Jesus Christ. Both believing Jews and gentiles being built up into one body serving our risen now reigning savior and king because of His glorious grace.

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  Comment by gordo — June 2, 2011 @ 4:48 pm

  C’mon Gumby, give it up. Theology, doctrinal and Herman Who differences are never resolved with blog posts. Convenice me against my will, I’ll be of the same opinion still (Hez. 4:21,GSV).

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  Comment by Stephen Cracknell — June 3, 2011 @ 8:01 am

  No Gumby, you keep right at it – you theological monster, you! For the posts on “spiritializing”; may I humbly suggest you read: A Case for Amillennialism – by Kim Riddlebarger. He, as a former dispensationalist answers this broken record we keep hearing on “spiritualizing”. It may surprise some BUT guys like Riddlebarger (et al) have been like the Bereans too – and searched the SCRIPTURES!

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  Comment by Alan — June 3, 2011 @ 10:48 am

  Okay, so because some other person, Riddlebarger, Paul the apostle, or an angel from heaven has some neat semmantical tricks that make plain language into doublespeak, does not allow me (or anyone else for that matter) to change the clear, easily understood, message that God wrote in His Word. I’m not in the slightest bit interested in how much Mr Riddlebarger has searched the scriptures, because Philippians 2:12 tells ME to work out MY OWN salvation with fear and trembling & 1 Thess 5:21 tells ME to prove all things, so I will read & believe the Word of God in the plainest way possible. Like I said before; stop following the teachings of men, and just read the Word for yourself. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead into all truth, so listen to Him, not anyone else. Blessings,
  Alan.

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  Comment by Tater2000 — June 3, 2011 @ 11:02 am

  >>>Comment by gumbymonster — June 2, 2011 @ 3:03 pm
  “Please read 1 Peter 2:4-11 and Eph. 2:11-22. It clearly states the wall of separation has been brought down, making those who believe a holy nation, being built on the chief cornerstone Jesus Christ. Both believing Jews and gentiles being built up into one body serving our risen now reigning savior and king because of His glorious grace.”<<<
  Amen. No argument.
  Do you think I'm disputing this? Why?

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  Comment by Tater2000 — June 3, 2011 @ 11:56 am

  >>>Comment by Stephen Cracknell — June 3, 2011 @ 8:01 am
  No Gumby, you keep right at it – you theological monster, you! For the posts on “spiritializing”; may I humbly suggest you read: A Case for Amillennialism – by Kim Riddlebarger. He, as a former dispensationalist answers this broken record we keep hearing on “spiritualizing”. It may surprise some BUT guys like Riddlebarger (et al) have been like the Bereans too – and searched the SCRIPTURES!”<<<

  Yeah, well. If you say so.
  I notice I’ve been quoting the Bible and what I’ve been seeing in response is, “Read this guys book. That’ll show ya.”
  So, y'know what?
  This ain’t going to get settled here. Just keep in mind that not all brothers and sisters think it’s funny and take issue when people scoff (2 Peter 3:3-4) at subjects that are actually sacred.
  The literal Millennium, Christ's removal of His Church before the Tribulation, God's promises to literal ethnic descendants of Abraham.
  I don’t think that’s uncalled for to ask.

  I’m done with this one… For now.
  I think I’ve been articulate and Biblical.
  Let’s go back to laughing together at the cartoons and emergent heretics.

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  Comment by Mike W. — June 3, 2011 @ 2:48 pm

  That’s absolutely hilarious, thanks for posting.

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  Comment by Stephen Cracknell — June 3, 2011 @ 4:53 pm

  Not quite Tater/Alan; not quite. You and I agree that it won’t be settled here; yes, we can all find our ‘proof texts’; my advice to ‘read a book’ is simply to suggest that others have addressed this sacred topic in far more detail than can be given here. At least if we still disagree, we may be more cognizant of our brother/sister views. After all, (Alan, I hope you are reading), God has blessed his church with “teachers”. When you write “Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead into all truth, so listen to Him, not anyone else” I wonder 2 things: why do you abhor the “teaching” gifts? and 2. why do you contribute to this blog when you refuse to listen to anyone else? I find your modus operandi (your faith in your ability to interpret scripture) quite unsettling.

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  Comment by Cory D. Jones — June 7, 2011 @ 7:47 am

  Tater/Alan – You’ve said everything I would have said, so I’ll simply write and thank you for your posts.

  Steve/Gumby – Not to be left out, although I don’t agree with your position on this one, thank you also for posting.

  As iron sharpens iron…

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  Comment by Mickey Merrie — June 8, 2011 @ 2:31 pm

  I came here for the humor, now I wish I knew the man with the sklide show! phew where’s the travelling deacon when you need him?

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  Comment by Rowfan — July 19, 2011 @ 10:42 am

  I happen to think and believe like Steve and Gumby, but I also know that when the Lord comes back and we enter his heavenly kingom, what we (or Tater and Alan) think will not matter a hill of beans, because we will then be sinless, and able to see our Father as he is and worship him as we ought. Then and only then will we all actually know the whole truth.

  Meanwhile, we will continue, both sides, to read the scriptures and study them and pray the Holy Spirit will continue to enlighten us about the Lord and what he desires of us. May the triune God continue to bless us all.

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  Comment by Ant Writes — July 23, 2011 @ 5:49 am

  I may write a book about the eschatology I’ve researched for years.
  But it’s available here:
  http://antwrites.com/2011/05/24/the-end-of-the-world-part-i/

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